Hmn... Where does that leave me? I had no interest in playing through the game in English, as I've already finished it twice in Japanese (with a legitimate copy, no less. Shock horror!). If I were to replay it again, it'd still be in Japanese, as it's good practice (and fun, besides; I like foreign languages ^_^). At most, I'd have downloaded it and mucked about with it for a little to see Deuce's excellent translation work in action. If his work on Ys Eternal is anything to go by, then it would've turned me green with envy. ^_^

That aside, I actually would've donated, because I appreciate the amount of work that people put into bringing nice Japan-only games to a Western audience, and I feel that they deserve recognition for it. $10 here and there is well worth the chance to show my appreciation for someone that I feel deserves it. And judging, again, by the translation of Ys Eternal, both Nightwolve and Deuce more than do.

I guess that'd put me in the second group that you described. And, as you said, I could care less. Quite a lot less, in fact. ^_^ Obviously a translation of a game is illegal, just as selling that translation is. But morally they're a world apart. I have a French friend who plays the guitar and sings (he's pretty good ^_^). Let's assume that he wrote a hit song in French. If I took that song and recorded an English version of it (my singing isn't so good, but this is an analogy =P) and gave copies to all my friends, I doubt he'd be all that bothered. Slightly miffed, maybe, that I did it without his permission, but not that bothered. But if I sold my English version, and pocketed the profits? That's 'I'm never talking to you again. Look forward to seeing my lawyer!' sort of stuff.

You could argue that it's the same thing either way, I suppose. That putting a paypal link on your site isn't really too far from just asking for donations. But I see it as the difference between a guy who does nice things for people simply because he cares, and a guy who does nice things for people expecting from the off to be reimbursed. I'd be grateful to the first guy, and return his kindness, but I'd probably tell the second guy 'get lost, I don't need your charity'. Or something like that. ^_^;

I can see what you're getting at. In the case of those who didn't buy the game, it's ridiculous to hear whining about paying $10 for a translation of it. Considering that a commercial English version of Felghana would probably be at least four times that, I'd say they're getting a pretty good deal. But that'd be assuming that selling it was both legally and morally sound. And it's just...not...

Again, the letter of the law is crystal clear in Nightwolve's case.  He's breaking federal statutes by selling his patches, as is anyone else who sells materials that change or modify copyrighted materials they do not own or have prior consent to modify.  There is no grey area; this is about as black and white as it gets.

If you want my opinion on it, I don't honestly care what Nightwolve does, because I'll never play a Ys game, but it reflects poorly on the rest of the fan translation community when people do shit like this.

Let me spell this out for you: we're not talking about roms.  We're not talking about music.  We're talking about federal statutes on works that modify other works.

Federal law is quite clear about works that modify other works when the exchange of money is involved.  It's illegal if there is not prior consent from both parties.  Does Nightwolve have prior consent?  He does not.  He's breaking federal law.

Call me a hypocrite all day long, you're still a fool if you think Nightwolve isn't breaking the law.

More than that, ownership of copyrighted material is actually a grey area--the sale of works modifying copyrighted material is not.

Again, not hypocritical. Moral. Quite a difference. There are degrees of breaking the law. Releasing a free translation of a copyrighted work is breaking the law and can be punished to an extent. Selling a derivative work that someone else holds copyright to is a much greater offense. But realistically, neither is a gray area. They're both illegal. But then, petty theft is just as illegal as homicide.

To pretty much all of us here, the Berne Convention is an immoral law. If a publisher refuses to translate their work, it should be allowed for others to do it, so long as there is no charge. Unfortunately, big business has more say in legislation than the people.

I don't have any trouble sleeping at night because I provide patches that translate games that the original developers abandoned. You still need the Japanese games anyway. Nobody profits except the original publisher, who arguably now makes even more money selling copies to English speakers who want to use my translations. I may have cost the original developers some money in lost sales had they decided to translate their works 20 years later ... but that gets into another argument entirely: copyright law lasts far, far, far too long for the good of the public. The length of copyright law is determined by companies who can hire the most lobbyists. There have been many studies that show the optimal length of copyright is around 12 - 14 years. If that were the case, I would refrain from translating games until they were at least that old.

But everyone has their own morals, and it's a very good thing that we don't equate morality with legality.

From a translator's point of view, this is being translated illegally.  If he wants to get it translated legally, he should talk to Falcom about it, not just present the patch for money; Falcom has a right to get paid for the work they've done.  They also have a right to determine if they want to work with Nightwolve and pay him for the work he's done.  Aside from that, as a translator, he has no right to say that his translations of somebody else's work is worth money if it modifies work that is not his own.

It's essentially no different than a fan-subbing group that fan-subs anime with soft-subs.  Just because all they provide is the soft-sub to the anime doesn't mean they're inclined, morally or legally, to make money from a work that is not their own.

If you want to look at this from a moral point of view, how does the argument change tomaitheous?  He's still doing something that is seen as highly immoral from all sides but his own.  Fan translators don't respect this, fan hackers don't respect this, the companies don't respect this.  Aside from personal greed, what "moral" question is there?  Simply put, I don't see your line of reason, morally or legally.  Regardless of which one is more or less hypocritical, in either case it doesn't make it right and it's certainly much worse than those people who provide the materials for free.

It isn't necessarily a "small amount of money", though. Say twenty people buy the patch, at 10 bucks a pop Nightwolve just pocketed $200. Since it's Ys a lot more than twenty people are probably interested in the game, so let's say 100 people are interested and buy the patch. Nightwolve just made $1000. That's assuming those 100 people are actually going to pay and not pirate the release, which begs the question why even bother charging since it's pretty much a given that it will be cracked and pirated eventually anyway despite whatever measures Nightwolve takes to prevent it?

Yeah, but the difference between NightWolve's and your congressmen is that NightWolve could go to prison for his actions, and the congressmen...

I'd follow byuu's opinion, and shut up. There's nothing I could say that hadn't been said yet.