Author
|
Topic: Request for translation patch for Ys The Oath in Felghana (Read 3952 times)
|
KaioShin
Guest
|
 |
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2007, 02:27:07 pm » |
|
Piotyr remove that sig, it's way too big. When I scroll through this thread half of it consists of your sig -_-
|
|
|
|
|
Piotyr
Guest
|
|
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2007, 02:52:30 pm » |
|
Piotyr remove that sig, it's way too big. When I scroll through this thread half of it consists of your sig -_-
I shall not remove it but I shall shrink it. give me a day or so to sort it out. Till then I will remove it. Done, hows that? I think I will have to redit it to be longer tho... I hate not having paint on the computer for some reason. |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: July 17, 2007, 02:58:22 pm by Piotyr »
|
|
|
|
byuu
Guest
|
|
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2007, 03:07:37 pm » |
|
Regardless of whether or not this topic has been beaten to death on other sites, I think this is topic of discussion is very relevant to the community here. I mean, it's not like we're hammering out an official RHDN opinion or something, we're just discussing, right? Maybe this thread should just be moved into another section or something. I think it's a very interesting topic and I'd like to see what people here think about it. Agreed, it's relevent to our community, at least. I don't recall a discussion here, but if there was, my apologies. I didn't see it and get a chance to throw in my two cents, so I'm doing so now. Sorry if the rehash upsets you, KaioShin. I'm glad to see everyone is in agreeance. I'd hate to see shareware like that hosted alongside my works here on RHDN. I've always been very against the idea of money exchanging hands in the fan translation and emulation communities. Perhaps too much so with DeJap, but I digress. The only thing I can just barely justify is for me, personally, to pay others for help they provide directly to me. Not as big a deal as I'm the one asking for the help, and I'm not in turn charging others for that. That's not happened to date anyway, so I guess the point is moot. But outside of that ... it's just wrong. Pretty much the only real moral justification I have for all of this is that I'm not profiting from my work in any way. |
|
|
|
|
RedComet
Guest
|
|
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2007, 05:04:36 pm » |
|
Piotyr remove that sig, it's way too big. When I scroll through this thread half of it consists of your sig -_-
I shall not remove it but I shall shrink it. give me a day or so to sort it out. Till then I will remove it. Done, hows that? I think I will have to redit it to be longer tho... I hate not having paint on the computer for some reason. Rules 4 and 10 are your friends. :police: |
|
|
|
|
Piotyr
Guest
|
|
« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2007, 11:46:27 am » |
|
Piotyr remove that sig, it's way too big. When I scroll through this thread half of it consists of your sig -_-
I shall not remove it but I shall shrink it. give me a day or so to sort it out. Till then I will remove it. Done, hows that? I think I will have to redit it to be longer tho... I hate not having paint on the computer for some reason. Rules 4 and 10 are your friends. :police: Sorry I phrased that wrong. I meant How about I shrink it? Rather then I shall not remove it. How is it now? Oh and maybe we can do this in private messages next time cause what if I were done with this topic and never saw this? Just a suggestion  . |
|
|
|
|
RedComet
Guest
|
|
« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2007, 11:49:08 am » |
|
Piotyr remove that sig, it's way too big. When I scroll through this thread half of it consists of your sig -_-
I shall not remove it but I shall shrink it. give me a day or so to sort it out. Till then I will remove it. Done, hows that? I think I will have to redit it to be longer tho... I hate not having paint on the computer for some reason. Rules 4 and 10 are your friends. :police: Sorry I phrased that wrong. I meant How about I shrink it? Rather then I shall not remove it. How is it now? Oh and maybe we can do this in private messages next time cause what if I were done with this topic and never saw this? Just a suggestion . In the event you hadn't changed it one of us (moderators) would've PM'd you.  EDIT: To answer your question, it's fine now. |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: July 18, 2007, 12:32:55 pm by RedComet »
|
|
|
|
Piotyr
Guest
|
|
« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2007, 12:54:43 pm » |
|
Piotyr remove that sig, it's way too big. When I scroll through this thread half of it consists of your sig -_-
I shall not remove it but I shall shrink it. give me a day or so to sort it out. Till then I will remove it. Done, hows that? I think I will have to redit it to be longer tho... I hate not having paint on the computer for some reason. Rules 4 and 10 are your friends. :police: Sorry I phrased that wrong. I meant How about I shrink it? Rather then I shall not remove it. How is it now? Oh and maybe we can do this in private messages next time cause what if I were done with this topic and never saw this? Just a suggestion . In the event you hadn't changed it one of us (moderators) would've PM'd you. EDIT: To answer your question, it's fine now. Thanks! And sorry if I sounded like I was arrogant with the "I will not remove it" thing I meant it as how about I not remove it but shrink it. I have total respect for you mods because you actually do a good job. Unlike other forums. |
|
|
|
|
tomaitheous
Guest
|
|
« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2007, 07:44:46 pm » |
|
I hope he gets some of the money from those donations, at least.
I don't. Not just because of the immorality of demanding money for an illegal translation and the problems it causes, or because the system he's proposing is completely ridiculous, but mainly because he comes off as a massive insecure prick. vvv I was talking about Nightlife. I don't have anything negative to say about Deuce. vvv E-mail Falcom. Maybe later, I'll do a rough Japanese translation of that, so wer can all tell Falcom what he's doing. What? You want to email Falcom out of spite for NW, because he's (or might be) charging for his *own* work? But it's fine if he gives the patch away for free? Where's the f-ing logic in that? That whole legality argument against, is a bunch of hypocritical crap. Unless you're some sort of saint who only dumps/uses your own rom images from your own games, never shares them, and never committed any sort of copyright infringement. *shakes his head* That kind of mentality disgusts me. I think this whole drama, about charging for a patch, is lame. It's his work. He can do whatever he wants with it. If someone doesn't like it, then they don't have to buy - simple as that. He doesn't owe the Ys or translation groupies/scene anything. He's not stopping anyone else from doing their own translation either. Also, NightWolve was never really part of any particular scene to begin with, so I doubt he'd care if the scene considered him *out*. (Did David Michael get this much flak for charging for ME?) IMO- the argument boils down two sides; people who don't want to pay for other peoples/groups translations or work, and the people who could care less as they normally donate anyways (probably more what he was/is going to ask). I'm in the later group - $10 is a lot less then what I've donated in the past. In the end all this hoopla will be for nothing. A crack/pirate version will available shortly afterwards anyway, if he decides to charge for it. |
|
|
|
|
Piotyr
Guest
|
|
« Reply #23 on: July 18, 2007, 10:26:31 pm » |
|
Its because he is building his work apon someone elses work. Its the same as someone selling their translations on ebay on pirated carts.
I think he should either put them out for free or just not share them that simple.
Someone should come in here and put it better then I did cause all day I have felt weird.
|
|
|
|
|
Talbain
Guest
|
|
« Reply #24 on: July 19, 2007, 05:12:16 am » |
|
It's illegal to put out something that modifies another's copyrighted work for personal profit, unless an agreement has been made prior to the release. Federal law is pretty damn clear about copyrights and what you can and can't do. Nightwolve (or anyone else selling translations) is clearly breaking the law, as are those who sell pirated ROMs on eBay. Enjoy reading this if you're interested in the exact letter of the law. VI.D.4. Derivative Works and Compilations Until now, we have been discussing computer programs as if they were a single work, or an original program and a series of derivative works comprising each modification to that program. While that was the case for early computer programs, now it is more common for a program to include preexisting libraries, themselves copyrighted computer programs, and similar components. When two or more preexisting works are combined to form a new work, in copyright law that work is called a “compilation†– “a work formed by the collection and assembling of preexisting materials or of data that are selected, coordinated, or arranged in such a way that the resulting work as a whole constitutes an original work of authorship.†The copyright in the resulting overall computer program comprises the copyrights in the preexisting component computer programs and a new copyright in the compilation. But that compilation copyright is very limited. The copyright in a compilation or derivative work extends only to the material contributed by the author of such work, as distinguished from the preexisting material employed in the work, and does not imply any exclusive right in the preexisting material. The copyright in such work is independent of, and does not affect or enlarge the scope, duration, ownership, or subsistence of, any copyright protection in the preexisting material. {FN108: 17 U.S.C. §103(b)} This means that to distribute the overall computer program, there must be permission from the copyright owners of all the component computer programs. It is important before distributing a program using a library that the license that accompanied that library allow the redistribution of the library in the way intended, or else the distribution right for that library will be infringed. Source |
|
|
|
|
tomaitheous
Guest
|
|
« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2007, 07:49:42 am » |
|
You misunderstand. I was arguing the legality of selling a patch - that's for the lawyers and the judges. That includes the legality 'grey area' of patches hosted on this site, free or not. I'm saying anyone in the scene who uses that argument is a hypocrite and it's bullsh*t. Let he who has never committed any sort of copyright infringement cast the first stone.
|
|
|
|
|
Talbain
Guest
|
|
« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2007, 08:12:11 am » |
|
You misunderstand. I was arguing the legality of selling a patch - that's for the lawyers and the judges. That includes the legality 'grey area' of patches hosted on this site, free or not. I'm saying anyone in the scene who uses that argument is a hypocrite and it's bullsh*t. Let he who has never committed any sort of copyright infringement cast the first stone. No, you see, there is no 'grey area.' That's what you're missing, and what the federal law is pointing out in that article. Selling patches for copyrighted software is illegal without prior consent from those who created the original software. I know for a fact that Nightwolve has no consent from Falcom. He's breaking the law. This site hosts nothing that is illegal, because no profit is made from any of the patches available at this site. The type of copyright infringement he is performing is wholly different from the average user at this website, because he's profiting from work that is not his own, or co-owned. As for copyright infringement in general, yes, everyone at this site probably has broken a copyright law, but I have never broken the type of copyright law that Nightwolve has. As such, I'm gonna throw lots of rocks. Your argument is essentially that a misdemeanor and a felony are the same thing. I promise you, they're not. |
|
|
|
|
satsu
Guest
|
|
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2007, 08:27:35 am » |
|
You misunderstand. I was arguing the legality of selling a patch - that's for the lawyers and the judges. That includes the legality 'grey area' of patches hosted on this site, free or not. I'm saying anyone in the scene who uses that argument is a hypocrite and it's bullsh*t. Let he who has never committed any sort of copyright infringement cast the first stone.
I never discussed legality, I was talking about morality. The patches on this site aren't in a legal grey area, they ARE illegal, and anyone who thinks otherwise is either ignorant or just misinformed. Unauthorised translations are violations of copyright under Article 8 of the Berne Convention -- an international agreement. As you can see, however, developers and publishers turn a blind eye to fan translations and hacks except in a few odd cases where people were being stupid (see: Pokemon translation patches). I would like for it to stay this way. I do not think charging for translations of recent games is good for the image of fan translations - it makes us look like pirates. Sure, NightWolve can do whatever he wants as you say, but it reflects badly on the rest of us whether he identifies with any scene. (Did David Michael get this much flak for charging for ME?)
Why would he? It was his own work, and I don't recall that he was being a twat about charging for it either -- unless you'd like to correct me on this. Besides, you're comparing apples and oranges. You can't lay claim to an entire work by translating it. Yes, the translation itself may be the work of the people who made it, but the content of it is still the work of Falcom. Would it be okay if I made a French translation of the new Harry Potter and charged for it? IMO- the argument boils down two sides; people who don't want to pay for other peoples/groups translations or work, and the people who could care less as they normally donate anyways (probably more what he was/is going to ask). I'm in the later group - $10 is a lot less then what I've donated in the past.
If that's honestly what you think, you've missed the point entirely. |
|
|
|
|
Guadozoku
Guest
|
|
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2007, 09:26:08 am » |
|
(Did David Michael get this much flak for charging for ME?)
Well, thanks to the free awesomeness of Ootake ( http://www.ouma.jp/ootake/) ME is obsolete. David Michael is the new Marat Fayuzzilan.  |
|
|
|
|
byuu
Guest
|
|
« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2007, 11:18:55 am » |
|
(Did David Michael get this much flak for charging for ME?) I certainly hope so. IMO- the argument boils down two sides; people who don't want to pay for other peoples/groups translations or work, and the people who could care less as they normally donate anyways (probably more what he was/is going to ask). I'm in the later group - $10 is a lot less then what I've donated in the past. Ah, the old guilt trip. Yeah, paying $10 is my major issue. Nevermind the brand new PSP I just spent $170+tax on, nevermind that $40 copy of Riviera or FF3, $30 copy of Ys Ark or ToP, the 30 or so SNES carts sitting in my closet ... $10 is going to break my bank. Yeah, that's my big issue here. Unless you're some sort of saint who only dumps/uses your own rom images from your own games, never shares them, and never committed any sort of copyright infringement. *shakes his head*
That kind of mentality disgusts me. Unfortunately, legality and morality are two totally separate issues. You are absolutely right, and I don't think anyone here has argued that fan translations are legal in any way, regardless of whether money exchanges hands. But if you can't see the difference between breaking the law to help others and spread international culture, giving away your work free of charge (meaning there's nothing in it for you) -- and only then, only when it's virtually certain an official translation will never be created; and breaking the law to profit from it ... then I don't know what to say to you to make you understand the difference. My bottom line is this: If you didn't create something yourself, and the success of your product is only due to the marketing, R&D and talent of someone else ... then you have no right to charge for your derivative work, at least not until that work has entered the public domain (which is, admittedly, way too long with current laws). Magic Engine falls into this category. How much money do you think DM would've gotten in sales if NEC didn't develop the PC Engine in the first place? However, what DM is doing is at least legal. Again, I'm talking morals here. Translations definitely fall into this category. Nightwolve's work would be worthless without Falcom spending millions to develop the Ys franchise and games. What moral right does he have to profit off of Falcom's successes? |
|
|
|
|
|
RHDN Forum Archive
