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Topic: Machine versus Human Translation Discussion (Read 2 times)
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snark
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« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2009, 12:22:06 am » |
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Like Ryusui said "If anything, "accuracy" can murder a story if it's all you aspire to." I agree 100 percent. *(unless this is someone's stated goal before a project begins, in isolated cases.) Anime writing in some of these RPGS can be terribly dull, which even native speakers of Japanese can attest. For example instead of saying, "You can't enter the door; you do not have a key." Why not say "The massive door is locked shut?" That is where creative writing and a little common sense comes into play. Machine translation: "Key not having door to not enter ." This is if you are lucky! Many hiragana words have multiple meanings, so you can end up with all kinds of hogwash. Machine translation is a tool, and a rusty one at that. It can get you in the ballpark, but you need a human translation to play. If someone can devise the technology to do this, well it will be light years in the making. There is no substitute for a trained human eye. What is next? A translation in Ig-Pay Atin-Lay?! Seriously though, I guess you have to start somewhere! snark
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« Last Edit: September 23, 2009, 01:29:42 am by snark »
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Spinner 8
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« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2009, 02:29:43 am » |
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The only difference between this project and many others is that Tru admitted to using a machine translation. It's ridiculous that this project is excluded from RHDN while Langfandood's worthless crap is still on here (which is, admittedly, a Whirlpool holdover that I now very much regret). Clearly the solution here is to, A, release it as an April Fool's Day joke as Tater Bear mentioned, because according to I.S.T. those kinds of projects are excluded from any and all rules, or B, just say you got a translator, and honestly no one will be the wiser. There's a right ton of patches on this site with text that's very obviously entirely made-up (here are two great examples), and they're only on the site because the hackers never told anybody it was made up. I don't think we should punish people in our community for being honest with us, and I don't see any need to discriminate in the first place. Again, except for Langfandood, because fuck that.
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Ryusui
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« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2009, 04:30:07 am » |
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I spent the last 24 hours before Breath of Fire 2's release compiling translator's notes to explain every little thing I did. That's right: that whole document was done at the eleventh hour, and I'd like to think I did a good job of it nonetheless. ^_^;
There is one thing you will lose in machine translation; it's hard enough to get with human translation, and that is context. Without context, all you have are words. It's especially problematic in Japanese, where potential for ambiguity lies in different places than it does in English. "Kore wo!" is literally "(do something to) this!"""; it's perfectly legitimate Japanese, but a proper English translation requires we either know just what is being asked (the missing word can be, for example, "kudasai", making the sentence "please take this!", or "kurae", making it roughly "suck on this and die!") or we figure out how to say the same thing with the same ambiguity (simply "Here!" would work in these examples, although if the line is meant to be voiced, you'd need to know if the speaker is handing out tea and cakes or hot, flaming death - and just who exactly it's being handed to).
In cases where the script is mostly linear, context can be inferred simply by reading the text like a story: not everything may be wholly clear without the graphics and sound that are meant to accompany the dialogue, but provided everything is more or less in order, it should be difficult to end up completely misinterpreting the text. If the script is largely random, however, or you have an abundance of one-off strings explaining reactions or following nonlinear conversations, then you really have only two options: accept that people are going to rag on your perfectly accurate translation because of its frequent non-sequiturs, or play the game yourself - dig through every nook and cranny if you must - and work out the context on your own.
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Hamlet
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« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2009, 07:37:52 am » |
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Here are my thoughts on this matter. I do not mean to offend anyone. I think this patch should be hosted here. I will quote from RHDN “Overview – The Short Versionâ€: ROMhacking.net Site Goals and Features Provide a central hub to encourage a new, refreshed, ROMhacking community. Eliminate problems other sites have had that cause stagnation or site 'death'. Provide a comprehensive document, utility, and translation archive. Expand that archive to include whatever the community necessitates. Put the power into the community member's hands for site operation and maintenance. Provide an active, central, one stop news source for the community. Provide a community database to tell you who is out there, who is active, and what they're doing! Does not sound very “exclusive/elitist†to me, much rather like a place where newbies are welcomed warm-heartedly. But if someone has the hacking skills but is not lucky enough to find a translator he/she's screwed? There are patches on this site, that translate only menues etc. which can sometimes be done by machine translators. Now someone comes on who has actually used various translation programmes and used them for a whole game and he is forbidden to enter? Really I do not get it. If someone placed a “label†on a patch stating that it is V 0.6 and awaits script editing, would the patch be accepted? What about RPGs (or other games) that are a lot of fun to play and the story is secondary? (You know, games like SRPGs or something like that.) Shouldn't people who want to “check this game out†be able to give it a go? Who knows, maybe someone tries this patch out, falls in love with the game and is able to help out with the translation editing or something of the likes. I always understood RHDN as a platform for finished projects AND projects in progress. Is “nothing†better than being able to play the game and roughly understand it? Is “nothing†better as long as we do not have a translation that matches certain literary standards? And who is the One to decide these standards? In the readme of the Mystic Ark patch from D-D the lack of joint-ventures in some parts of this community was hinted. And refusing to host this patch seems, at least to me, exactly what is indirectly fostering this attitude. Either you already have all the needed positions filled, or you're out. And that is so NOT what I always imagined this site to be. I am also against hosting childish simple graphic hacks. But if someone has managed to hack a complex game like an RPG and insert an (unedited/rough) script and thereby allows a previously Japanese game for an English speaker to be played from beginning to end, then I think this person has put a fair amount of effort into it. Denying this person the hosting of his/her project on THE major romhacking site seems really discouraging, if you ask me. Quality standards have to be maintained, I totally agree, but these standards should not be used to prevent romhackers with only one area of expertise from exposing their work trough this site's prominence.
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Nightcrawler
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« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2009, 08:49:34 am » |
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For the record, I agree with those of you that believe it should be here. Plenty of good points were made. I already brought up the langfandood thing, and the fact that we shouldn't be in the business of validating translation accuracy to staff before. It was met with resistance. Moving on to other things, I gave the call to Neil on the issue and here we are. I understand the guy did it only because he couldn't get a real translator. In fact, I might go so far as to say I'd recommend such action to get your project known and show you are capable of hacking the game in hopes of finding a real translator. *shrug* I don't see what the big deal against it is.
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« Last Edit: September 23, 2009, 12:00:42 pm by Nightcrawler »
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kingofcrusher
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« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2009, 11:50:25 am » |
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Personally I think it's utterly ridiculous it's not being hosted here. A machine translation can be just fine if the person plays through the game for context and uses dictionaries along with it. Hell I did over half of Last Bible Special that way before I found a translator to do the rest, it was hard and I had to use about 4 different sites, EDICT, and Atlas, but I doubt anyone could tell what I machined from what my translator did.
The guy has been working on this off and on for 8 years and then gets shut down here, what a kick in the face.
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Kagemusha
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« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2009, 12:36:38 pm » |
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I personally would accept the patch, but would not label it as complete even though it may be more or less complete with most dialogue translated. I would save the complete status until a human translator were to go over the script and edit/revise it etc. If I were Tru, that would be my ultimate goal for the project before I would actually label it as complete.
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UglyJoe
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« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2009, 12:43:03 pm » |
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Don't have much to add here, but I think it should be hosted. As long as the description says it's machine translated then the user will know what they're getting themselves into. Also, we do have reviews now, so, if this is a huge abuse of MT, the reviews will reflect that.
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davidvinc
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« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2009, 03:24:44 pm » |
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I'll also chime in on the matter and say that I feel that it should be posted. At least he put alot of time and effort into the project - he is a serious hacker and didn't let the lack of a translator stand in his way. We should be applauding his effort, not kicking him when he's down.
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Neil
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« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2009, 03:36:04 pm » |
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There was a discussion of turning this into a poll. I saw it as a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. There was going to be a discussion either way. If the general consensus in this thread is we host the patch, then we host the patch. This is a community site after all. The main point in doing it this way was to keep the acrimony to a minimum. Several of the translation news posts in the past few months have turned into flamefests, which is a shame. I'm glad the news thread for this patch didn't join them.
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DarknessSavior
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« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2009, 03:40:18 pm » |
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I personally would accept the patch, but would not label it as complete even though it may be more or less complete with most dialogue translated. I would save the complete status until a human translator were to go over the script and edit/revise it etc. If I were Tru, that would be my ultimate goal for the project before I would actually label it as complete.
I'd go with something similar to this. The guy did work on it hard enough, but we need to get something going so that perhaps a translator will play it and see "Wow, this is pretty cool" and translate the script for him. ~DS
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Eien Ni Hen
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« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2009, 03:45:00 pm » |
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All this talk about man vs. machine got me curious, so I ran some of the lines in "Dark Half" through Babelfish. Here are the results:
Original: èžã‘人間ã©ã‚‚ 審判ã®æ™‚ã¯æ¥ãŸã®ã Babelfish: At the time of hearing human judgment it came Me: Hear me, puny humans! The time of judgment is upon ye...
Original: ã‚ãŒå¤§åœ°ã«è§£ã放ã¡ãŸã‚‹ Babelfish: It releases in our ground, the barrel Me: I have been loosed upon this earth!
Original: ããŸã‚Œã€ãªã‚“ã˜ç”˜ãæ»ã®æ™‚よ Babelfish: Coming it droops, no [ji] comes sweetly at the time of death Official translation: "Come, thou sweet death's hour" (Cantata BWV 161)
Babelfish completely missed the last one, although it was sort of unfair, I guess. The line is the title of Bach's Cantata 161, translated into Japanese. It's used in the game as a chapter title.
Also, there is a context-specific reason why I did not translate ã‚㌠as "my" in the second line. Namely that it's a spoiler.
To reiterate a tired point, machine translation is fine for the basics and can be a real time-saver, but behind every truly great translation is a human translator or editor.
That being said, from the screenshots I saw, the translation wasn't half bad. Although I respectfully agree with the decision of the RHDN staff, I see no reason why the patch shouldn't be hosted.
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Kajitani-Eizan
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« Reply #27 on: September 23, 2009, 03:57:18 pm » |
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machine translation is in no way acceptable for a proper fan translation. if at any point you have selected the output of a machine translation and hit CTRL+C, you have failed. (except maybe for things like item names... maybe. dialogue? yeah right.)
that said, apparently i missed the context behind this discussion. if the purpose of the machine translation is to (hopefully) temporarily fill in for a real translation in an in-progress hack, there's no problem that i can see. as long as the author isn't trying to pass off the machine translation for a real translation and is upfront about what his hack is and isn't, it should be fine.
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heratio
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« Reply #28 on: September 23, 2009, 04:28:34 pm » |
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Just call the patch version .5 and called it a WIP and then the person working on it can put up an advertisement on the site seeking the help of a translator. PC Engine projects are pretty rare compared to other systems and I agree with many others and think it should be allowed here.
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Tater Bear
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« Reply #29 on: September 23, 2009, 05:06:59 pm » |
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There was a discussion of turning this into a poll. I saw it as a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. There was going to be a discussion either way. If the general consensus in this thread is we host the patch, then we host the patch. This is a community site after all. The main point in doing it this way was to keep the acrimony to a minimum. Several of the translation news posts in the past few months have turned into flamefests, which is a shame. I'm glad the news thread for this patch didn't join them.
General consensus seems to be let the patch be hosted here and that machines suck. Lucky for you there are no terminators or agent Smith's posting on these forums or we would have had a flame war, due to the offended machines :crazy: :laugh:
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