I have a similar view as InVerse.  If you're a ROM hacker that has a problem with your ROM being hacked -- you're pretty much a big fat hypocrite.  The idea that you can somehow think you're above being treated the way you treat others is troubling to me.


I think the only reason people draw the "don't hack me" boundary line between the hobbyist ROM hacker and the commercial ROM producer is because the commercial ROMs sell for money.  If a ROM hacker sold his ROM hack -- he wouldn't get any sympathy from anyone in "the scene", and people wouldn't have any problem hacking his ROM without permission.

I think this distinction is completely arbitrary and is rather ridiculous.


EDIT --

That being said... I can see why Nightcrawler would want a "no hack of hacks" policy for the site and understand it.  Ultimately, the hackers are the ones supplying the content... so if a hypocrite hacker doesn't like that the site allowing people to upload their "hacks-of-my-hack", he'll withhold his content, which is harmful for the site.

So while I can understand (and even support) such a policy for this site.  I don't think it represents the attitude of ROM hackers as a whole (nor should it).

it also leads to huge flame wars and people bitching like crazy. A lot of Nightcrawler's policies here are designed to avoid drama as much as possible. I'm sure an old schooler like you knows how much drama there was back in the day...

I don't agree with all of the rules here, but I understand each and every one of them.

*shrug* I don't think it's that arbitrary. The reasoning is probably "Commercial ROM producers are not part of the scene, so why should they be subject to The Code?"

well sorry 

I don't know what you guys are debating, but your views on game companies and ROM hackers and hypocrisy seem unrelated to a community and it's inclusive friendship and respect amongst/between it's members. That's key to prosperity.

This is a site of/for a tight knit community of people the enjoy an environment of friendship and respect. Based on feedback, that's more or less been maintained and appreciated by the members here with the occasional hiccup.

Go ahead and make yourself a poll and vote on who wants to maintain a respectful and friendly environment and you'll see the majority do. Then you can make a second one asking if not bothering to ask a fellow member to use their work or crediting them is DISrespectful and UNfriendly. I don't need to be a prophet to see the results of that poll either.

It's friendship and respect between community members. That's all it is. I don't know why you have to try and turn it into something it's not. That's the environment that's wanted here. If you don't want friendship and respect, you're in the minority and I don't know why you're here talking about it.

We're keeping the largest group possible happy here by providing the best environment we can. As long as the majority agrees that's what we're doing, that's all that matters.



InVerse:

I really don't know what you're issues are. You don't seem to ever communicate them to me. Anyway, as usual, if you feel so strongly that my opinion dictates everything, make some polls and see what the majority thinks. Prove it. I get feedback daily from board members, non board members, and the likes. The majority of all complaints typically come to me as well (and when they don't, I've suggested  to you that you let other people who are complaining know they need to make their complaint known.). So, I'm typically aware of dissatisfaction and satisfactions on the site when they are brought to my attention. Certainly I can't be accountable for grievances I don't know about.

So, if you believe all this dictation is occurring on issues(not relating to my personal risk involved with the site), make some polls about said issues and let's see. Support your accusations. I will take responsibility if you're right.

This is a subject over which I have pondered many times. Based on the responses so far I'd like to propose a scenario:

Let us say I have a game that has a very well known translation patch on which many well regarded hackers collaborated to create.

Now say I'm also interested in hacking the translation-hacked game to suit my own tastes.
I pull out my hex editor and go to town... Doing things, like renaming objects or tweaking their stats. Maybe I change enemy's stats, I modify main characters or stats or abilities perhaps I make some graphics hacks. Perhaps I even tweak dialogue or modify other things. Essentially I do whatever I like.

Now in and of itself I'm sure this is fine and if I'm the only one playing my hack on my personal computer, no one knows and then no one cares.

But now let's say I'd like to share my Hack with the general Rom Hacking community. However I'm not stupid, I'm not going to pretend that the base hack is mine! I'd be castigated by the community if I did so, besides it being just wrong, in my own moral opinion.


In an effort to maintain good form and to also do what I believe is right I include verbiage in my hack-of-the-hack's readme file starting off about how my hack is based on the Translation Patch. I also include the original documentation for the Translation Patch in the down-loadable archive for my "hack of a hack". In other words I make it well documented exactly what I did and I give credit where it is due.

NOW...therein lies the dilemma. What amount of credit is sufficient.

Is the above sufficient? That is merely crediting the original crew that did the translation patch / hack base sufficient?

Is getting explicit permission from the original hacker or some member of the translation patch team a mandatory requirement? If I can't contact someone what amount of due diligence is required (e.g. do I keep spamming up their inbox? Maybe they don't care what I do?) Maybe I never hear back? Do I wait a month, year?

Or should this activity, hacking-hacks, be labeled as something taboo...in other words keep it to myself?


The second is the distinct impression I am getting from Nightcrawler, unless I take him wrong from his previous post:


I can also see how problems can and do arise...

One might see it like adding sugar to a well roasted blend of coffee...you're sweetening it to your taste...

However to the original hacker or the community might see you as putting Ketchup on a $60 USDA Prime Porterhouse someone just bought you at Ruth Chris...

I may not have ever posted here before...but I've seen the online drama in many places...rom hacking and otherwise.  I dabble in this hobby and lurk on some of the boards related to it...but one hobby is the same as any other. I can completely understand the earnest attempt at avoiding conflicts which create animus between people or groups of people in an online community.

However I do cede the point of the hypocrisy of a hacker / translation hacking group being outraged at someone hacking their work (if their original work is properly cited of course). Any of us that hack copyrighted commercial game software are walking a very thin line between the legal and illegal already. Sure patches and hacks aren't technically illegal if you aren't distributing the original software or making patches with the intent to turn a profit. However if the original hacker didn't get permission from the original creator then how can they have a problem with a derivative work (again the caveat is properly cited derivative work).

The point is obviously...I have hacked / am working on a hack using a well known and very extensive translation patch hack as a base for a game edit to suit my tastes. It's not necessarily an improvement and is probably a novice attempt at best to many here (ketchup on a steak?). Though I have considered posting it on a personal website for download. However I've not done so because of the above dilemma. ('tis better to remain silent and thought a fool than to open your mouth and prove it).

Ultimately I have a lot of respect for what some people have achieved - there are a lot of very talented people spending a lot of free time doing some really amazing things in this hobby. I'd rather follow good form in it than play what might be considered dirty pool...

isn't this basically what jorgur is doing with his ff5+ patch?  it requires the translation patch by rpge as its base. he's doing what kitsune suggested.

just thought i'd add a real-world example. 

Uh, that's pretty hard to do, if, say, you want to hack a game that was translated from Japanese to English. Pretty hard to not "include the original patch's work" in it, unless you wanted the person to re-write ASM routines, change the font, and change ALL of the script.

I think if the person who creates a patch like this simply says "this is what I did, and everything else was already in so and so's patch" it should be fine.

~DS