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Author Topic: Feasible Alternative to NES Mappermania?  (Read 1 times)
Dr. Floppy
Guest
« on: May 14, 2010, 02:08:34 am »

Something that occurred to me recently-

Why didn't Nintendo cobble together the various hardware/abilities from their major Mappers (battery-backed RAM at $6000, scanline-based IRQ counters, extra square waves and PPU-RAM from MMC5, etc.) into a short, rectangular unit designed to be hooked into the NES's underside via that expansion slot? This would've make game production cheaper (especially for third-party developers), and would likely have resulted in better games at lower prices.

Second question: is there anything (aside from the knowledge and labor requirements) that would prevent a determined hacker from putting together something like this for the Playing-Hacks-on-the-Original-Hardware Community?
tomaitheous
Guest
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2010, 09:07:22 pm »

Quote from: Dr. Floppy on May 14, 2010, 02:08:34 am
Why didn't Nintendo cobble together the various hardware/abilities from their major Mappers (battery-backed RAM at $6000, scanline-based IRQ counters, extra square waves and PPU-RAM from MMC5, etc.) into a short, rectangular unit designed to be hooked into the NES's underside via that expansion slot? This would've make game production cheaper (especially for third-party developers), and would likely have resulted in better games at lower prices.

 I take it you weren't old enough for or experienced the 8bit and 16bit console era?
tc
Guest
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2010, 10:37:58 pm »

Doesn't that expansion slot have no door, instead needing the plastic cut off to access?
Dr. Floppy
Guest
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2010, 02:41:01 am »

Quote from: tomaitheous on May 14, 2010, 09:07:22 pm
I take it you weren't old enough for or experienced the 8bit and 16bit console era?

That made absolutely no sense, given that the NES is an 8-bit system. (Care to try again?)


Quote from: tc
Doesn't that expansion slot have no door, instead needing the plastic cut off to access?

Sort of. The outer panel comes off with minimal effort, but there is a strange piece of plastic held into place by six tiny plastic braces.
tomaitheous
Guest
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2010, 01:09:23 pm »

Quote from: Dr. Floppy on May 15, 2010, 02:41:01 am
Quote from: tomaitheous on May 14, 2010, 09:07:22 pm
I take it you weren't old enough for or experienced the 8bit and 16bit console era?

That made absolutely no sense, given that the NES is an 8-bit system. (Care to try again?)

 If you were a gamer in that era, then you'd know exactly why the idea of an "addon" wouldn't work out well with the gaming consumer base. For gamers that grew up in that generation, no explanation is really needed Wink I'm not going to explain/debate about it here, when there are tons of threads in gaming forums specifically for this. But the general consensus is that required addons don't work in the general public, relative to gaming. And something as small of an upgrade as that, definitely not. Not only that, but companies want to develop for the largest target audience, not a limited/smaller consumer base. I.e. best bang for the buck. It has to be something pretty amazing for consumers to go with it. Overall, it's a bad idea (with a few exception in history. Namely the PC-Engine CD addon).

Celice
Guest
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2010, 03:21:00 pm »

Yeah, I still don't get what-the-fuck thole Sega thing was.  Nintendo--system, done.  Sega... what the fuck are these addons and why does it look like a brainy sex device?
Dr. Floppy
Guest
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2010, 09:06:16 pm »

Quote from: tomaitheous on May 15, 2010, 01:09:23 pm
If you were a gamer in that era, then you'd know exactly why the idea of an "addon" wouldn't work out well with the gaming consumer base. For gamers that grew up in that generation, no explanation is really needed Wink

Ah, silly me. And here I thought the Game Genie was an unbridled success...  Roll Eyes

Moreover, I guess I dreamt all those Elementary School cub scout meetings, as they usually ended with the *four* of us playing Nintendo while we waited for our parents to come get us. What was that thing called... the 4-Player Adapter? Must've been a hallucination. (Damn Ritalinâ„¢...)

Fast-forwarding ten years to college, I recall a late-night trek out to K-Mart in order to purchase an N64 Expansion Pak so I could play Majora's Mask. And that was one of the few games which required it; most were optional:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_64_accessories#List_of_games_that_support_the_N64_Expansion_Pak


(Egads! I'm sharing a delusional reality with Jimbo Wales!)


Quote from: Celice on May 15, 2010, 03:21:00 pm
Yeah, I still don't get what-the-fuck thole Sega thing was.  Nintendo--system, done.  Sega... what the fuck are these addons and why does it look like a brainy sex device?

Nintendo took their time and did things right, even if it meant enduring a short-term perceived one-upping. Sega mostly adhered to the strategy of "Blow wad early and often. Make lots of noise and go really fast. Only losers need a Plan B."
UglyJoe
Guest
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2010, 11:50:10 pm »

Quote from: Dr. Floppy on May 14, 2010, 02:08:34 am
This would've make game production cheaper (especially for third-party developers), and would likely have resulted in better games at lower prices.

Cheaper production seems likely, but I'm not so sure about "better games".  Allowing developers to use newer MMCs later on allowed games to get more and more sophisticated.  If Nintendo had developed a device like you suggested early-to-mid life for the NES, it could have actually stifled some great later games by not allowing them to (or persuading them not to) expand beyond the limitations of console + addon hardware.
safaribans
Guest
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2010, 07:37:53 am »

This reminds me of the Aladdin Deck Enhancer.
You'll have to scroll a bit.

http://www.retrogamingconsoles.com/consoles/nintendo-entertainment-system/nes-accessories-3rd-party/

If I had to guess, I'd say Nintendo never produced their own, since you wouldn't have to buy a new
Nintendo, your current system would be backward compatible, and/or homebrew/unlicensed carts.
tomaitheous
Guest
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2010, 09:44:34 pm »


Quote
Ah, silly me. And here I thought the Game Genie was an unbridled success...  Roll Eyes
Not an addon. It's a cheat device.

Quote
Moreover, I guess I dreamt all those Elementary School cub scout meetings, as they usually ended with the *four* of us playing Nintendo while we waited for our parents to come get us. What was that thing called... the 4-Player Adapter? Must've been a hallucination. (Damn Ritalinâ„¢...)

 That's a peripheral, not an addon.

Quote
Fast-forwarding ten years to college, I recall a late-night trek out to K-Mart in order to purchase an N64 Expansion Pak so I could play Majora's Mask. And that was one of the few games which required it; most were optional:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_64_accessories#List_of_games_that_support_the_N64_Expansion_Pak


(Egads! I'm sharing a delusional reality with Jimbo Wales!)

 And that one game, at the very end of the N64's life means what, exactly? Besides being a crappy game (worst in the Zelda series), it was Nintendos last ditch effort to milk the N64 users out of their cash (Zelda is guaranteed to bring in sales and consumers are bound to shell out the extra cost, let alone the n64 users). Though, I'm sure die-hard N64 fanboys probably already have the ram expansion pak.

 Anyway, what's so hard to understand about the logical reason I presented? What's so hard to understand about developers wanting to develop for the largest target audience/user base? It's a pretty simple concept. Nintendo would have alienated a large chunk of their user base if they forced people to upgrade their system.

Quote
Nintendo took their time and did things right, even if it meant enduring a short-term perceived one-upping. Sega mostly adhered to the strategy of "Blow wad early and often. Make lots of noise and go really fast. Only losers need a Plan B."

 Did you actually think things out, or is that just a baseless snark response?
Dr. Floppy
Guest
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2010, 12:30:38 am »

Quote from: tomaitheous on May 18, 2010, 09:44:34 pm
{Game Genie isn't} an addon. It's a cheat device.

Semantics.


Quote
{NES 4-Player Adapter is} a peripheral, not an addon.

More semantics.


Quote
{Majora's Mask}, at the very end of the N64's life means what, exactly?

It means I'm right and you're wrong. The Expansion Pak qualifies as an add-on (even by your strict semantic standards). You had the option of purchasing it, or not. All but four games in the N64 library worked fine without it; a sizeable crop just functioned better *with* it. As would've been the case with my proposed device.


Quote
Besides being a crappy game (worst in the Zelda series),


Darkest? Probably. Difficult? The argument can be made. But low-quality?  :laugh:  You must not have been around to witness the unholy CD-i trilogy.


Quote
Anyway, what's so hard to understand about the logical reason I presented? What's so hard to understand about developers wanting to develop for the largest target audience/user base? It's a pretty simple concept. Nintendo would have alienated a large chunk of their user base if they forced people to upgrade their system.

Ah, you misunderstood the query! The proposed add-on would've been completely optional, just as the N64 Expansion Pak was. As for the user-base, I'm old enough to remember the downright rabid devotion NES fanboys had back in the day (both before and after Sega trotted out their crackhead porcupine). If Nintendo Power had announced something along the magnitude of an official NES expansion deck, all the Ritalinâ„¢ in the world wouldn't have peeled us off the ceiling. Granted, we wouldn't have understood the significance of 8x8-pixel-block attribute data, or functional writes to the $5000-7 registers... but we wouldn't need to. "Better Graphics & Sound" summarizes it nicely.


Quote
Nintendo took their time and did things right, even if it meant enduring a short-term perceived one-upping. Sega mostly adhered to the strategy of "Blow wad early and often. Make lots of noise and go really fast. Only losers need a Plan B."

 Did you actually think things out, or is that just a baseless snark response?

It's a damn-accurate description of the companies' respective strategies during the 90's, delivered via whimsical prose. Since you're not having a good week, I'll elaborate a bit upon its relevance.

Someone brought up Sega's tortured legacy of producing add-on after add-on after add-on for their systems, most of which lacked any real subsequent attention in terms of games. (Which is rather ironic, as their failures eventually forced them to go third-party, i.e., now they make nothing *but* games.) The implication (intended or not) was that a similar fate would've met any hypothetical Nintendo add-ons. A worthy point, which I countered by pointing out the stark differences between Nintendo and Sega's respective business strategies. Nintendo took their time, did things right, lost some short-term glory but almost always emerged victorious in the long-run. This model would've doubtlessly been applied to a NES expansion device:

January: Miyamoto's team is already halfway done with their latest masterpiece, designed to take advantage of (and ship with) the device.

Spring: Third-party developers are given a heads-up about the paradigm shift, along with an updated devkit/FAQ.

Summer: Rumors circulate. Nintendo execs become unable to say "no comment" without wetting themselves whilst giggling profusely.

September: Nintendo Power makes the official announcement, designed to take advantage of the start of the new school year. Recess banter can now be broken down as follows: 58%- Prodecural Recreation (baseball, hopscotch, beat-the-crap-out-of-Phil, etc.); 23%- NES Expansion Unit; 12%- The Opposite Gender is Gross; 6.999%- Other; 0.001%- "Phil Sure is Taking his Sweet-Ass Time in that Candyvan..."

December: The product launch (along with a few teaser shipments in late November) exploits the hell out of the Xmas season. Third-party developers take careful notice, making the decision to get on board or continue watchful waiting.


Now, let's compare that to Sega's typical execution:


January: Announce the Uranus/Exodus-Q unit.

Spring: Hype the hell out of the Sega Uranus/Exodus-Q with commercials showcasing 1.3-second clips of various UEQ games (set to a zany electric guitar solo), contrasted with a ten-second real-time scene from Gameboyâ„¢ Tetris (set to "Popsicles, Icicles" by The Murmaids).

Summer: Continue hyping the hell out of SUEQ in company-friendly outlets such as EGM and Gamepro.

September: Um, when's this thing coming out again?

November: The SUEQ hits the shelves three weeks before Thanksgiving, with four launch titles (one of which is somewhat playable).

December: Announce the Venus/Leviticus-H unit on the 1st; spend the rest of the month wallpapering the conference room with death threats from third-party developers.


tomaitheous
Guest
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2010, 12:57:42 am »

 Haha. Semantics? that's a good one. You have some serious flaws in your thinking. Either you weren't old enough(which is my guess) to understand the situation BITD, or you just don't get it. Besides, Nintendo's actions speak for themselves. If it was a worth while pursuit, Nintendo would have done it. Maybe you didn't know this, but before the 16bit generation, the majority of gamers were young kids and barely teens. Parents did most/majority of the spending/funding (and renting was very popular). Upgrade/Addons need to have significantly comparable difference, to justify the price/purchase. Something as small as a single inclusive mapper isn't going to cut it (not to mention that the technology already existed on cart, in working fashion). And like I said, developers are going to be reluctant to support it without a large enough consumer base. And to say they could have made dual carts, is just retarded. I'm sure the last thing Nintendo wanted, was to confuse the parents and kids about which game to purchase. Anyway, I got nothing more to say without repeating myself. I'll not bother continuing this debate. Good luck in trying to figure it out Wink

 Oh, and you should get rid of that fanboy-ism (or more specifically the Sega hate'n). It's such an ugly/unbecoming trait.
Nightcrawler
Guest
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2010, 07:14:30 am »

I would like to add that interestingly, Nintendo choose to go the same route on the SNES with the hardware add-ons being contained on the cart. This exact same discussion could be had applied to the SNES. Why didn't they just make an add-on with the SA-1 or SuperFX etc.? I'd guess it was just less complicated and more cost efficient for everyone involved from a business perspective to do it the way they did for years spanning two console generations. Smiley
« Last Edit: May 19, 2010, 11:45:06 am by Nightcrawler »
tc
Guest
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2010, 10:14:01 am »

Quote from: tomaitheous on May 19, 2010, 12:57:42 am
Haha. Semantics? that's a good one. You have some serious flaws in your thinking. Either you weren't old enough(which is my guess) to understand the situation BITD, or you just don't get it. Besides, Nintendo's actions speak for themselves. If it was a worth while pursuit, Nintendo would have done it. Maybe you didn't know this, but before the 16bit generation, the majority of gamers were young kids and barely teens. Parents did most/majority of the spending/funding (and renting was very popular). Upgrade/Addons need to have significantly comparable difference, to justify the price/purchase. Something as small as a single inclusive mapper isn't going to cut it (not to mention that the technology already existed on cart, in working fashion). And like I said, developers are going to be reluctant to support it without a large enough consumer base. And to say they could have made dual carts, is just retarded. I'm sure the last thing Nintendo wanted, was to confuse the parents and kids about which game to purchase. Anyway, I got nothing more to say without repeating myself. I'll not bother continuing this debate. Good luck in trying to figure it out Wink

 Oh, and you should get rid of that fanboy-ism (or more specifically the Sega hate'n). It's such an ugly/unbecoming trait.

In that case, you'll have to go through me as well. I'll always stand up for militant anti-Sega viewpoints. Wink
MathOnNapkins
Guest
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2010, 01:15:41 pm »

If it really would have brought game prices down, I would have been in favor of it. When I was a kid, I was severely limited by how many games we could actually purchase because of the high cost. If an expansion unit cost $70 but made all subsequent games cost about $25 to $40, I would have appreciated it and probably would have bought it. But the gaming industry rarely prices things in favor of the consumer. Cutting edge gaming tends to drive up prices. I doubt it would have, in reality, made much difference in the price of the games if they chose to implement something like that.
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