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Author Topic: 21fx is here.  (Read 1 times)
Talbain
Guest
« on: December 09, 2009, 01:12:33 am »

http://byuu.org/21fx/

This is just about the coolest thing I have ever seen from the emulation community.  byuu actually extended what the SNES could potentially do and the results are pretty awesome.  You could do all sorts of cool things with this.  Want a CD quality soundtrack?  You can do that.  Want to re-insert video taken out because the game was the SNES version?  You can do that.  So many other things to do with this.

Hope everyone here gives it a try!
Geiger
Guest
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2009, 09:11:16 am »

I can't poo-poo Byuu's knowledge, but some of his ideas are really out there.  While he addresses the question, I think he really does miss the point that adding hardware onto the SNES changes what the original device was.  There's also the fact that the vast majority of patches are played in emulators.  Which means on the off chance he ever actually does get some hardware produced, he'll probably be the only person using it.  He'd be better off figuring out how to work within the limitations of the original hardware instead of trying to remove those limitations.

I had a similar idea for expanding emulators about five years ago, based on watching memory values and then playing external songs or movies with speed and volume control.  I never implemented it for much the same reasons, as well as the issues presented by distributing a pack of 80 mp3 files and a dozen movies.
MathOnNapkins
Guest
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2009, 09:33:20 am »

The thing is though, he is not simulating additional hardware onto the SNES (A Super Super Nintendo or whatever), he's designing a hypothetical cartridge hardware device. Such a device would work within the limitations of the SNES. Streaming audio would be provided over the cartridge pins that would bypass the SPC / DSP. Now, I think one ought to design and prototype the hardware before designing software for it, but it's a free country.
smkd
Guest
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2009, 09:56:15 am »

Yeah the *original device* was equipped with audio pass through pins and powerful enough hardware to stream video of reasonably quality.  What's the big deal? It's already been mentioned that hacks can easily detect the device and operate without its functionality so compatibility in emulators for a given hack doesn't take a hit.
MontyMole
Guest
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2009, 10:36:10 am »

Dammit am I the only one here who's thinking this sounds similar to the unreleased SNESCD add on.  That is damn well awesome.
creaothceann
Guest
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2009, 10:57:43 am »

Quote from: MathOnNapkins on December 09, 2009, 09:33:20 am
he's designing a hypothetical cartridge hardware device
Actually a base unit (like the planned SNESCD). Quote:

Quote
like neviksti said, simplicity is king right now. This does 99% of what I want and is the bare minimum that I find useful. Just extra ROM space? May as well use the S-DD1 mapper. It's the CD-quality audio stream that really makes this device. And I really, really think it will be simple to implement. All you have to do is capture 6-bytes worth of commands from the base unit, start playing a CD track, and diplex it with the SNES A/V output cable. Done.

I think this is everything a real SNES-CD base unit would have been. And it leaves the cartridge port wide open for whatever.
Of course he doesn't have to use a CD, but I fear he will. (SNES and CDs just doesn't fit together, imo.)
BRPXQZME
Guest
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2009, 12:57:52 pm »

Hack the FMV into TokiMemo already! Shocked
Nightcrawler
Guest
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2009, 01:43:37 pm »

This is all I have to say:
http://umk3.hacking-cult.org/eng/download.htm

21fx is a little more thought out to try to be realistic, but it's ultimately the same as any other hypothetical external hardware extensions in an emulator that we've seen over the years.
Numonohi_Boi
Guest
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2009, 01:44:54 pm »

he's discussed both a base unit and a cartridge unit. The point is he's building it to work with most of the limitations of the SNES, this isn't a Sega 32X, it's just making possible CD quality audio and FMVs, as well as the ability to soft patch real carts (there isn't really any benefit in doing this over using a flash cart except that it's pretty damn cool, playing your romhacks on your actual carts)

I'm excited, and while who knows if it will ever happen, I'll buy the hardware if someone makes it, and it sounds like they are working on it.

he also explains a lot of this in his article

Quote
What the SNES was truly capable of

If you look at the S-DD1 (Star Ocean) and the SPC7110 (Far East of Eden Zero), you will see two games that use memory-mapped controllers to page in more ROM space than their address ranges permitted. What 21fx does is simply extend the possible range from 4MB to 4GB.....

Now look at the Super Game Boy. It connects to the SNES cartridge connector's audio output pins to stream the Game Boy audio at 2.147MHz, which is then mixed with the SNES' S-DSP output.

Another example is the Broadcast Satellaview, which connects to the SNES' base connector, and streams CD-quality audio transmitted over satellite. 21fx works on the exact same principle, but also waits for a ready state, once again allowing virtually any storage medium, regardless of its latency, to work.

21fx is an extension, not a special chip

The protocol was designed to be as flexible as possible, so that virtually any configuration is possible. 21fx can be created as a base unit connector (ala the Broadcast Satellaview), as a cartridge passthru (ala the Game Genie), or as a flash cartridge (ala the SNES PowerPak)......

....The device itself really just needs a connector, an SD card slot, and an FPGA or MCU capable of implementing the equivalent of ~2kb of C source code across three registers.

....Imagine if you will, Chrono Trigger for the SNES, with CD-quality audio of your choice. Perhaps one of the various remixed CDs released. And with all of the full-motion video from the PSX version. All with zero seek times. And on real hardware or on emulators. Or imagine an entirely new game, no longer bound to an arbitrary 4MB ROM size. All the levels you want, all the graphics you want, all the music you want.

One goal is to attract the attention of ROM hackers to create UPS patches that make extremely minor changes to games, which will enable 21fx support, while still providing full backwards-compatibility for non-21fx hardware and emulators.


Although like romhacks, these things take time, and may just never happen.

One thing he did say though was that no one is going to care or use it unless there are cool hacks for it. I think he is doing Der Langrisser but is anyone else going to step up and make hacks utilizing it? I can't hack for shit on the SNES but isn't there any hackers out there that are interested in this?
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 01:58:21 pm by Panzer88 »
Gemini
Guest
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2009, 02:14:52 pm »

Now I want a VWF chip.  Roll Eyes
KingMike
Guest
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2009, 02:56:39 pm »

Quote from: Panzer88 on December 09, 2009, 01:44:54 pm
as well as the ability to soft patch real carts
Really? IPS (or UPS) with original carts? Sweet! Smiley
Numonohi_Boi
Guest
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2009, 03:02:42 pm »

Quote from: KingMike on December 09, 2009, 02:56:39 pm
Quote from: Panzer88 on December 09, 2009, 01:44:54 pm
as well as the ability to soft patch real carts
Really? IPS (or UPS) with original carts? Sweet! Smiley

yeah he said you'd be able to soft patch them and run the hacks on the original carts, he said it provides no benefit but I still think it's sweet Smiley
creaothceann
Guest
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2009, 03:26:37 pm »

I think that was only one of the possible uses for a pass-though cartridge-slot based device.

You can't change or "inject" code from the expansion port alone; the cartridge has to use that port somehow. Hence the need for ROM hacks.
kingofcrusher
Guest
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2009, 03:58:06 pm »

Being able to soft-patch your own carts would actually be very beneficial- the SRAM on flash carts is usually limited to enough space for only a couple games so it fills up fast. I'd love to be able to buy real carts and use them with patches so I'd buy something like this over a flash cart, personally.
Numonohi_Boi
Guest
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2009, 04:13:55 pm »

yeah it's a cool idea for sure, and there are other possibilities also, it just takes romhackers to dream them up.

the thread about the 21fx on his board is located here

http://board.byuu.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=408
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